And not all Gedolim agreed with the BY movement; the Hungarians objected to the teaching of Rashi to girls (and certinaly Rambans and Maharals) on the claim that that constitutes Torah shebal peh. Others said that since Rashi merely explains the pshuto shel mikrah - the simple meaning of the text, it would be considered Torah shebiksav in this sense.

However, even the Litvishe Gedolim have mentioned that the BY movement has often overstepped their bounds in the emphasis on Meforshim, sometimes crossing the line into things that may not be learned. Rav Shach ZTL writes in one of his letters that teaching girls Meforshim in depth would be assur because of this, (the problem is quantifying "in depth", which makes it easy to rationalize) and when a couple of seminary girls came to him to sak him to explain a Ramban or somethign to them, he replied that they should better spend their time delving into domestic arts.

Just as there are things that need to be improved in the Yeshiva system (such as their learning too slow, as Rav Shach, Rav Gifter, and others have often lamented to no avail), there are things that ought to be changed in the BY system. It is not the Gedolei Yisroel that created the curriculum that they use today.

Just look at this site: Girls who attend high-end BY schools have serious questions about basic Judaism, are confused about their committment to religion, and possess precious little knowledge of Yesodiei Hayahadus. Aish HaTorah's Project Chazon has become wildly popular in the BY schools by virtue of the fact that they come in and teach basic emunah - the basics of the basics, like G-d exists, Judaism is the only corretc religion, etc. - and the students lap up the material like malnourished children.

This is the matieral that was previously used for beginner baalei teshuva that is now being imported into the BY's. And they need to import it because the they are not equipped to provide it themselves.

But these same girls, who, if you were to ask them why Hashem cares if they're frum, will tell you they have no inkling, can successfully tell you the different opinions of how the Egel was formed, which Korbonos were brought for which aveiros, and whether the tzefardeah were frogs or alligators.

To the point where Roshei Yeshiva have endorsed that someone trained to educate beginning Baalei Teshuva should be invited to these high-end BY schools and teach the girls why they must be frum.

What's wrong with this picture?

This is the matieral that was previously used for beginner baalei teshuva that is now being imported into the BY's. And they need to import it because the they are not equipped to provide it themselves.

But these same girls, who, if you were to ask them why Hashem cares if they're frum, will tell you they have no inkling, can successfully tell you the different opinions of how the Egel was formed, which Korbonos were brought for which aveiros, and whether the tzefardeah were frogs or alligators.

To the point where Roshei Yeshiva have endorsed that someone trained to educate beginning Baalei Teshuva should be invited to these high-end BY schools and teach the girls why they must be frum.

What's wrong with this picture?"

While this is a good argument against many problems of the bais yaakov system- it is a poor proof to the problems that you seem to think come hand in hand with girls going more into depth into meforshim.
I dont understand- im not a feminist- BUT- girls arent stupid- and they have the brainpower and often the desire to go into depth into things- why only get the surface level if you have the opportunity to get even more out of your torah learning? if a girl can spend so much time on history and math and thats ok, kal v;chomer a billion times to learn TORAH (quite an important part of judaism, i think you will agree), why shouldnt it be pursued? why shouldnmt a girl also be able to quench her thirst for a greater understanding of tanach and halacha? i cant seem to understand how it makes sense!!
p.s.- i repeat- i am WAY not a feminist

Men are 10x more likely to be ADD
Men are twice as likely to be mentally retarded
Men are twice as likely to contract Alzheimer's disease
A teenage girl's attenton span is 4 times greater than that of a teenage boy!

Yet -- teenage boys are 30 times more liekely to score in the top 10 percentile on the SAT in math
Men are 100 times more likely to be capable of becoming a chess grandmaster; women are 2.5 times more likely to be successful psychologists.

Women are twice as likely to develop Parkison's Disease.

Women are 3x more likely to rememebr childhood memories.

Thats just the beginning.

Clearly, men and women are two totally different species. And their minds work differnetly. IfI were to tell you that the Torah says that the job of being a chess grandmaster was relegated to men and not woemn, you'd object saying "But women are smart, too!" And if I were to tell you that the Torah says that men shoudl be the ones to represent humanity on the Math part of the SATs youd object saying "But teenage girls have 4 times the attention span of teenage boys!"

The Torah surely knows what men and women are suited for, a lot better than us. And the Torah, as stated in the halachah, says that women are not given the job of learnign Torah shebal peh; that wa left to men. WOmen have a differnet job in this world.

Your "kal vahcomer" abotu math and science vs. Torah is fallacious --- what does one have to do with the other? Torah is NOT a science --- its a soul-practice. Torah connects your soul to certain powers up on high, and chidushoe torah come not merely form the mind but from the neshama itself.

The SHem Mishmuel distinguishes Torah learnign form secular knowledge by saying that secular knowledge is "physical", instinctive knowledge --- like a spider's "knowledge" of how to spin a web. Torah knowledge is real, earned, soul-knowledge.

Are you goign to tell me that animals, becaus they are capable of spinnign webs, are "smart" so they would be able to learn Torah too?

But even the scientists and psychologists can see that men and women have differnt mind-strengths, as stated above. If there is a kal vachomer here it is this: If even in secular sciences there are clear distinctions between men's minds and women's minds, all the more so in spiritual "sciences".

But all this is superfluous -- the Torah says that women are not suited to learn Torah shebal peh. What reason do you have to question that? Because they are "smart"? That was never the point.

As far as Hashem "wanting His Torah ot be leanred" and etc, you are mistaken. If Hashem wanted women to leanr Torah she bal peh He would not have prohibited it. Clearly, women "connect" to Hashem NOT through learning but through other means. In fact, the Gemroa says explicitly that women merit the reward of Torah NOT by learning, but by assisting their husbands and children in their learning.

In fact, even the Torah that girls are obligated to learn halchah and mussar - does not merit for them the zechus of Torah; for their "obligation" to learn these thigns is not an obligation ot LEARN - it is merely a necessary part of fulfillign their obligation to DO the MItzvos, for if they do nto know, how can they do?

The yhave no obligation to learn ANYTHING. It is merely that certin things must be learned in order to fulfill their obligation to practice, not because of any obligation ot learn.

We ought not try to rewrite the Halchah the way we think it should be. If women - or men - have a desire for somethign permitted or obligatory, that's fine, but if they have a desire for something prohibited, then they shoudl resist. Thats what were in this world for - to withstand nisyonos. And that includes women going to Gemora classes.

My argument regarding the curriculum was this: Women are obligated to know the basics of Judaism because of the mitzvah to know of G-ds existence and His Oneness; and their obligation of yiras hsamayim and simply religious commitment means that they should learn those things that facillitate the fulfillment of their obligations. Spending time on things that they are NOT obligated in any form or manner to learn - such as meforshim etc - when they are not yet anythgin close to knoweldgabel; in those things that they are obligated to learn, that is, those things that will strengthen their emunah and yiras shamayim, is foolish.

PS - Please dont come back with a retort that "all Torah" regardless of what it is, instills Yiras SHamayim. I have heard that argument form perhaps a dozen women's educators and it is nonsense. Because while it is true that someone who learns Hilchos Lulav before Pesach will merit thereby that he will fulfill Pesach better, you still cannot compare someone who prepares for Pesach by learnign Hilchos Lulav to someone who prepares by learnign Hilchos Pesach!

The Halachos and Hashkafos of Emunah and Yesodei HaTorah address directly the issues confronting them. You would not go into business without learning choshem mishpat, evben though ALL TORAH will generate honesty in business; you would not be mesader a Get without learnign hilchos gittin; and you cannot bleieve in Hashem and have Yiras SHamayim without learning Hichos Yesodei HaTorah and Yiras Hashem.

I wonder if they would say the same thing when a girl gets engaged: Dont have kallah classes -- teach them chumash and rashi, and that will generate the appropriate Yiras Shamayim and Midos for them to run a Bayis Neeman.

You mean the ones who haven't given in to the radical Feminists, who do their utmost to suppress such information.

Re learning on your own, there is a Perishah that states that if a girl chooses to learn Torah on her own, that shows she is an exception to the average girl and therefore she may learn the Gemora.

In my opinion that Perishah cannot be applied to today's situation since the Perishah's reasoning was based on the fact that if a girl decides to learn Gemora it must be because she has an exceptional amoutn of Yiras Shamayim or committment or whatever, that is no longer the case. In those days, why else would a woman want to learn Gemora in the first place? WOmen were happy in the role the Torah gave them, and besides, there is so much to learn within the parameters of relevent Halachos and Hashkofos that it would make no sense for a girl to learn Gemora. And also, since in those days it was not considered chic or stylish or even "normal" for girls to learn Gemora, a girl who decided to do it on her own would likely do nothgin but raise eyebrows. In any case, for whatever reason, the Perishah observed that a girl who wants to learn Gemora has absolutely no possible motive except the fact that she is exceptionally committed to religion and for whatever reason, has established herself as an exception to the rule.

But today a fgirl learning Gemora is no longer an exception to the rule. And it no longer proves anything special about that girl. Today we have even Conservative and Reform women learning Gemora. The social observation upon which the Perishah made his statement is no longer the case today. So the Perishah would not apply.

The only possibility to to apply the Perishah today would be if he means that the Gezeirah of Chazal not to teach girls Torah was never made against a girl learning on her own. If that is the case, then we would not be able to prohibit it today, even if the reason to prohibit would apply. We do not add to or make new Gezeiros.

However, even if that were so, and it is open-ended in the Perishah, a girl learnign Gemroa today even on her own would still be as if she were learning Tiflus, because that fact is independent of the prohibition of Chazal, and so long as you are not an exception to the rule (and nowadays we have no reaosn to believ you are) you are only huritng yourself and damaging your soul by learning Gemora.

But in any case, teaching Gemora to girls in a classroom setting, or father to daughter is prohibited no matter what.

if a girl isnt brought up sheltered there is no way for her to get her brain to think in a straight line unless she is exposed to Torah- not necessarily rambam on korbonos, but you need to fill up ur brain with Hashem Smarts, aka daas Torah in order to have any sort of brains as to how to live, no? assuming the brain is filled up also with shtusim from before...
friends dont yell at me k?
and btw it made a big diff that in vidui Yom Kippur i knew which korbonos i was chayav for which aveiros, so yeah, i couldve had an artscroll peirush but still- and also that i understood the leining, i bet 97 percent of women in shul tuned out at the yom kippur avoda - and cuz i learned it it made a big diff- so thats mussar and yiraas shamayim, no?
maybe you can say that as a klal girls shouldnt learn these things, but certain people maybe need it for mussar?
i get much more emuna from learning an awesome blow-ur-mind ramban then from like, michtav meiliyahu on emuna....or like gedolim books and "lights along the way"-when u taste Torah you believe in it-
I TOTALLY BCHLAL didnt taste real Torah what it means when a man sits and learns all day
but i got a tiny taste and i love it and i dont think that anything else could keep me strong like learning, its so sweet...cmon rabbi you learn so u know- its totally for mussar and yiraas shamayim.
thank u
sorry so long i would norm go back and erase some but i gotta run
also we get schar for learning no? we learned that.
i guess only as a hechsher mitzva....so back to the old q.
also whats ridiculous is some ppl say to learn lets say vayikra, WHY because you might teach it- thats soooo pathetic because why do ur students have to learn it, if u urself are only learning it in order to teach them?! thats just a big irksome thing.its like humanists that think their in the world in order to better it for their kids, and their kids? in the world to better it for THEIR kids. uch so stupid
but yeah back to the point, whats the deal, mod?

What is not OK to learn is any Torah item, i.e. concept/idea/fact/that is not relevent to you.

It doensnt matter if learnign Gemora "turns you on", since turning you on is not the creiterion - relevence is.

So all the Halachos that you have to know, all the reasons to believe in G-d, the concepts and philosphy behind Judaism which all constitute the Mitzvos of Emunah, Yiras Shamayim and all the Mitzvos of the heart and mind - all of this is permitted, and a Mitzvah for you to learn. But the Mitzvah you fulfill is not "limud hatorh" - you are exempt from that Mitzvah. The Mitzvah you fulfill is whatever Mitzvah you happen to be studying (as a hechsher) - because the first part of a mitzvah is knowing what to do.

It is nto an excuse to learn Vayikra because you have to teach it, since you dont have to teach it! Such logic is circular reasoning, as you mentioned.

So too this idea that girls should learn anything to give them Emunah is against what Chazal said that they do NOT learn Torah shebal peh (and believe me - Chazal knew a lot more about the Emunah-inducing properties of Torah than us), and we know that she is doing somethign wrong in her learnign methodology.